A few of you know me and know that I'm not in any way new to marathon/ultra running, but I'm actually at a loss and need some sound advice.


A little bit of background:

Up until injury struck this year I used to run about 5 marathons and 3 ultras a year, plus shorter races. Admittedly some marathons were 'used' as training for the next ultra and I don't believe I ever asked too much of my body given the training and I've never suffered a proper injury before.

Consequently I had a fantastic year in 2005, even started winning stuff. I started 2006 promisingly too with a good 10k PB and coming second LV40 at the Duchy Marathon.

Then on April 2nd at the Oakley 20, which I was using as training for FLM, I got injured. That forced me to withdraw not only from FLM but also Copenhagen marathon, Dartmoor Ultra, Kent 50 Challenge and numerous shorter races, including the upcoming Wolverhampton Marathon. In all I will have binned 12 race entries

The injury:

It's a long story but basically, after seeing a couple of physios I then had an MRI scan, which showed damage to the hyaline cartilage in my right knee.
To correct the problem that caused the injury I have been doing loads of exercises, with progressively heavier ankle weights. I was also instructed to take Glucosamine 1500mg and Chondroitin, which I have been now for about 3 months.

Training:

My physio gave me the go ahead to start running again on Saturday 15 July. I was only allowed to run 2 miles. The following day my muscles hurt like I'd run 20!
Since then he built me up by half a mile at a time until I was running twice a week distances of 3 and 4 miles. My speed is coming back, much to my amazement! One week my physio said that I should do an easy 4 and a faster 2. The 2 mile run splits were 6:14 and 7:17.
Last Sunday was a 10k that I had entered before injury halted me and I'd thrown so many numbers in the bin that I stubbornly decided that this race was not going the same way. I am really glad I went and, even though my injury niggled a bit at 5 miles so I had to slow down drastically, I finished in 48:33.
However my physio wasn't too impressed and said that he would prefer it if I didn't race again this year.

This is where you come in

I am entered into the Miami marathon, which is at the end of January 2007. It's a race I've been dreaming of doing for a number of years now and it's also one I entered before this injury struck. My flights & accomodation are also booked. My physio knows about the race and he knows how desperate I am to do it.
When I entered I was on a high from my last marathon PB of 3:40, and then getting 3:42 on a hilly marathon, so I was figuering on sub (or very near to) 3:30 at Miami because it's so flat.
With my 3:40 I could even get a 'Seeded' start at Miami!

But a lot has happened since April and now I don't even know how I'm going to get enough training in to be able to complete it comfortably. Plus I've tasted the delights of sub 4 a few times now and I really would like to taste that again in Miami.

My physio paints a bleak picture saying that I'll have to build up very slowly, and that I'll probably be short on mileage...he's got me running a 3 and a 4 this week, then next week I can add a 3rd run to the week, but it can only be about 2 miles... so something like a 4, a 2 and a 3.

This Sunday it will be 22 weeks until Marathon Day

The question is...
How do I build up very gradually so as not to p*$$ off my knee, from such low mileage to a sub4 marathon in 22 weeks??

So I guess no one can help me with this then

Ho hum....


<<sigh>>

It's been a while since you posted this Trinity... how is the training going? It's a real dilemma your in as marathon training requires putting the mileage in.

Thanks for asking ajtuna... I'm just muddling along really... trying anything.

To be honest I left this forum for a while because I was offering solutions/suggestions to other peeps problems or questions but never getting any feedback at all from that or in this thread.

So I thought what's the point, it's all one sided. Just dropped in now coz I was bored...

If my invisibility cloak stays off then I might start coming in regularly again

Be a real shame to lose someone with your experience in running Trinity, I would like to reply but being a relative newbie I'd be bugger all use to you !

Agree with Granty that it would be a shame for you to stop posting Trinity as your posts are always most helpful.

I'm cautious about offering advice myself as I've yet to run a marathon. How is your training now? What weekly mileage are you doing? Any more injury problems?

Thanks guys...
I do like to give others the benefit of my experience, but peeps like me with lots of experience need help sometimes too.

Well, as I said...I feel like I'm 'muddling through' a marathon schedule at the moment. I did work one out, with something like 20 weeks in it. But my leg has decided to take a few days off here and there.

It's frustrating because I know what I should be doing now with just under 15 weeks to go, but because I've had to play it careful and been forced to rest when I should have been laying down 'foundation runs' ... ie the 6, 7's and 8's, I'm falling behind week by week.

According to my schedule I should have done 13 yesterday, so just after I planned my schedule I looked to see if there were any half marathons, because it's much nicer to do a long run with lots of other peeps around, especially if you get support along the way and a nice shiny medal at the finish As luck would have it there was a local half marathon (Swindon), so I entered it with full intention of treating it as a steady training run.

Well I have now come to the conclusion that I cannot use races as training runs anymore, and I think that this is mainly because my cardiovascular system is still very fit so I don't feel like I'm running very fast. But obviously my leg is still very much in recovery and it didn't like the last 3 miles at all... in fact the only reason why I didn't stop and walk was because I had forgotten to cancel the auto-pause on my Garmin, so if I had have stopped and walked my Garmin would have stopped recording my time

Anyway, I stupidly continued to 'race' and finished up with 1.47, when I should have been running at a more realistic training pace. I feel very lucky to have got away with it.... this time.

This week my schedule says that I should be running 37 miles, inc a 14 on Sunday. But my biggest week so far was last week in which I did 27, inc the half marathon... so I'm at a loss because I obviously can't jump up an extra 10 miles in one week, so I'm going to fall behind a little more.

There are a couple of developments since I started this thread though... I've seen my sports masseur and he has put another angle on the whole injury scenario... while trying to work out why one particular muscle became weak he suggested accupuncture. The thinking behind it was that perhaps somewhere along the line there has been damage to the nerve feeding that muscle, and as we were discussing that possibility a lot of what he was saying made sense with the sensations and particular problems I'd had before and during the injury.

So I sought out an accupuncturist and had my first appointment today. I have to say that I wasn't relishing it, because although I can 'tolerate' needles, I don't really like them much. But I was surprised...hardly felt them to be honest, and it was really interesting. Anyway, the accupuncturist said that it is a distinct possibilty that it could be a nerve problem, but it could also be a problem within that muscle and for some reason there is a blockage so it's not receiving the nourishment that it needs. He said that he's sure he can help me and I came away feeling that this was a really positive move in the right direction

The other thing I have done is buy a road bike. I can't run as much as my schedule is saying that I need to so I thought I'd try and compliment my running with some longish bike rides. It must have been destined because as I was trying to budget for a nice bike, those lovely peeps at Inland Revenue sent me a tax rebate!

So that's where I'm at really... I'm also not working nights anymore...thankfully!!! So that should help long term too.

If I was managing to run a half marathon as 'part of my training' I'd be made up !!, it sounds like you are feeling more positive than when you first started this thread.

It certainly sounds like 37 miles might be out the question for this week, but there is still plenty of time to go until the race, I'm sure of you keep the cycling up, increasing the runs (knee permitting) and the fact that it is a race that you have been looking forward to for bloody ages will see you OK.

Like I said earlier, more of a postive reply than advice as I'm sure you know far more about training than most of us but there you go :-)

PS - What about swimming in the evenings to complement the cycling, less impact on the knee must be a good thing ..... right ??!!??

Hi Trinity

Really nice to hear from you again. I was worried that our lack of support had turned you away, so I'm very glad to see you back again. Hopefully you'll stay around a bit more now. Like many of the others, I'm such a newbie that I really can't offer advice, but I have anyway wondered how you have been getting on, so it's good to read about your ups and downs. A time of 1:47 for a half marathon sounds very respectable. Upping your mileage by 10 miles in one week sounds too tough, but I'm assuming that you are adjusting your plan as you go along to play a better game of catch-up?

I've always been a bit sceptical about acupuncture, but almost all the people I have ever known to have tried a course of acupuncture have sworn that it made a difference to them. How many sessions will you be going for? And let us know the results from them and with your training.

Good luck, and keep us posted

I've heard similar things about acupunture, it is definately worth a try.

You're right about the weekly milage Trinity, it's not advisable to jump up another 10 miles a week as you risk another injury. It does sound like cross training could be the key to getting you through... cycling, swimming and perhaps some core strength work in the gym could all make up for those lost miles.

Hi Trinity,

Like you I have done a number of marathons. As I tend to suffer knee injuries my marathon times are not as good as my shorter race times would indicate I should be able to do. Very frustrating!

You still have 3 months (ish) to race day which to me would effectively be the start of marathon training.(Starting from a reasonable base that is and not from scratch.) You have that base already with the mileage you are already doing and the 1/2m time you did shouldn't worry you. There is plenty of time to build up to the really long runs so re-write your plan accordingly...don't break the 10% rule.

I would continue with the accupuncture...I've had it previously and it seemed to work for me. At the very least I felt it worked and half the battle is conquering the fear that builds up between your ears!

Keep in contact....I'm always happy to provide an opinion/advice! Might not be what anyone else thinks of course but at least it's something else for you to consider!

All the best.

No advice to offer but just thought I would voice my support.

Thanks everyone!

Granty... slight problem on the swimming front... I don't swim, I drown And yes, I guess you're right, I am feeling more positive

Karen... my accupuncturist reckoned on about 4 or 5 treatments, but said we'll see how it goes and how I respond.

Thanks Dan and Steve... and don't worry, I won't jump up the mileage too much

jeanettekaren... thank you, I really appreciate all the support from you and everyone else

See....we love you really!