Sounds to me like your trying to solve one problem and in the process may create a another, I spent 6 months injured due to "experts" telling me to wear supportive shoes as I'm a big pronator, it solved nothing, and emptied my piggy bank pretty quickly. I'm not saying it wont work for you and I really hope it does, but you may want to look at strengthening your legs and core and making sure you are well stretched.

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What type of shoe did you end up wearing in the end Stu ?

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Vibrams, DS racers and adios.

Basically I started running in vibrams to correct my gait, muscles hurt that I didn't know existed, then I incorporated running in racing flats. I went from a heel striker to a midfoot striker, sometimes I even land on my toes!!! I also land with a slightly bent knee rather then my leg straight. These aren't things I focused on doing but you have to when in vibrams.

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*Gold medals aren't really made of gold. They're made of sweat, determination, and a hard-to-find alloy called guts.*

I agree with Stu. Its not that I don't think there is some good in the Bio tests etc, my friend has her own practice although I have never had it done myself. I think strengthening your core would help and I also agree now is maybe not the right time for you to be changing things

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"It's not on the smooth days that you find out what you're made of, it's when it all falls apart and things seem to go wrong at every turn". Wise words from Miss Lilyloo.

My story is similar to Stu, but with a bit of a twist...

I used the 'free' gait analysis at a running store and was always told that I was an over-pronator and a heel striker. I was told I needed stability shoes and that's what I bought and ran in. It didn't stop me getting injured.

A couple of months ago, I paid (200 quid!) for a full gait analysis and biomechanical assessment at a specialist. This was nearly 2.5 hours of assessment, involving running in shoes and also barefoot. Prior to running, they mark various points on your body with a marker pen to analyse exactly how your whole body is moving. The running is videoed from all angles and analysed later.

The outcome was that I am actually a fairly 'normal' runner - I slightly over-pronate on one foot but within normal limits. I was advised to get a normal shoe, and one with much less support and a lower heel. I now run in Asics Noosa Tri, which are much lighter weight compared to the support barges I previously had strapped to my feet. I had sore achilles and calves for a while due to the lower heel, but you adapt fairly quickly. They are hideously bright coloured shoes, but that fades once they are covered in mud :-)

I also left with some additional stretching and strengthening exercises to sort some hip adductor issues that were most likely the causes of previous injuries and which would never have been spotted by sports shop gait analysis, nor would it have been corrected by using stability shoes.

I would never again rely on gait analsis from a sports shop, but I would use a 'proper' bio-mechanical running assessment. I am now convinced that a lot of problems are not a result of under or over-pronating, but are a result of other bio-mechanical issues. As the mileage ramps up, these issues get compounded.
I also think that the over-supportive shoes and big thick heels are part of the problem. My barefoot analysis showed that I was a mid-foot striker, not a heel-striker as I had previously been told from the sports shop analysis. The problem is that it's almost impossible to avoid heel striking when you have a big wedge of foam under your heel.
I'm not saying that I won't get injured again, especially as I am increasing mileage and intensity for a spring Marathon, but I feel that I am running better than ever and (touch wood) I am having far fewer niggles than previously.

The people that I used are these guys: http://www.strideuk.com/ (no connection other than a happy customer).
Not cheap, but good value for money IMHO. It only really cost the price of a couple of pairs of running shoes, and I've certainly wasted more money than that buying the wrong shoes in the past.

Getting the right trainers is vital and it is a scary thing walking into a shop and being bamboozled by all the jargon and endless rows of different trainers for different types of running. Therefore it is improtant for assistants to understand the customers needs and what they are selling. It is also important for them to understand that they are not podiatrists and have nowhere near the amount of training that a podiatrist has.

For some people injuries can be prevented by wearing more supportive footwear and if the shop assistant can spot this then thats good, it'll save the customer a lot of pain and money. Other people have muscle weaknesses or boney abnormalities which means they need a greater intervention such as orthotics or streching/strengthening exercises and these people need to see a podiatrist or physio.

I would suggest if you suffer from an injury that just wont go or suffer injury after injury (that has not been caused by a specific trauma) then you should see a podiatrist or physio not the local running shop. A little analogy, if your car keeps stalling do you go to the petrol station and ask the attendant which fuel to use or do you go to a mechanic and ask them to take a look at it? The attendant will probably be able to tell you if the car is petrol or diesel but the mechanic will be able to tell you why its stalling and fix the problem.

Remember abnormal movement that results in pain, such as excessive pronation is a symptom not a diagnosis. The cause of the symptom is the diagnosis and it's the diagnosis that should be treated not the symptom. A sales assistant might be good at spotting over pronation or reduced pronation but the real question is; why is the abnormal movement occuring? Often its very subtle such as one leg 5mm shorter than the other.

A full biomechanical examination is a lot more than just looking for over pronation and thats why it takes 3 years of training for a podiatrist or physio to meet the minimum requirements to be able to practice their trade.

Why would a leg length descrepancy cause 'abnormal movement' Andy?

I'll add to the anti gait analysis group here :

I've had "proper" (ie - running shop) gait analysis done 3 times in two different shops. All have drawn pretty lines on the screen, showing my ankles collapsing inwards and advising I need stability shoes, and that I over-pronate badly. They only ever looked at my ankle and knee positions, never in between the two...
Despite this, I'm still suffering from problems, currently i'm injured and seeing a physio.

Interestingly, when I run on trails, with my neutral (as there aren't really any stability trail) shoes I tend to be okay, with only the associated problems of uneven terrain - this is even true if my trail run is on hard packed terrain, or includes roads.

When I was in Sheffield at Xmas I paid a visit to Accelerate, and a very knowledgeable man called Stuart. He asked me to stand in various positions, felt my feet, my arches, looked at my stance...and without me running a step told me that a. i'd been advised to use heavy stability shoes and b. that advice was a load of cobblers (he put it a bit more politely lol). He was the first salesperson to ascertain that I am bow-legged - and therefore the angles that my lower legs, knees and ankles make will look different. He then got me to run on the treadmill (no camera even set up) and walked around me as I was running.... in his opinion my pronation is pretty normal, it's only my ankles that are moving, and shoring them up with a stability shoe will not help. He then proceeded to set the camera up, show me everything he'd described...and you know what - bang on! Sadly I wasn't getting road shoes that day, I wish I had bearing in mind the sore leg I now have!
Now my physio is looking at my posture etc....and saying exactly the same thing. I've also had a discussion with a local coach (who happens to be a neighbour) - and he has said the same thing. As far as all parties are concerned running shop gait analysis is carried out too quickly, without looking at any underlying issues/biomechanical oddities that may be prevalent. In my case my ankles do turn in, but if you look at my foot I land and roll forward, toeing off almost perfectly on my biggest two toes.

Sorry for the long post, but to sum up - I don't now trust running shops that don't actually look at your body, but stick you straight on a treadmill and draw lines to prove their point (for example, my achilles/calf isn't vertical therefore I over-pronate! No, my achilles/calf isn't vertical because i'm bow-legged and they're bent that way!!). What I do trust is people who take their time, take a reasoned, balanced and scientific look at everything from the waist down, and who know what they're talking about and can back it up with evidence that makes sense. So, as per the post above - a full biomechanical exam for £250, or a full discussion with a physio who is fully experienced in running, or visit Accelerate! (and no, I have no connection with them, other than being a very satisfied client!)

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Good luck with it Dave, but I have collapsed arches and now flat feet, I wear a support shoe, I've tried neutral shoes, while some of them have more cushioning than others which does help but just not quite enough, I need a mild support shoe, like my Mizuno wave Inspire 8s, nice and bouncy and good cushioning with mild support, tomorrow I might even give a pair of Nike Triax 14s an outing, ooh the choices lol

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It would take a whole PhD thesis to answer that. The more active someone is the smaller a leg lenght difference needs to be before it becomes problematic. A whole host of problems arise from limb length differences but the 2 main abnormal movements during gait are vaulting over the long leg and hip hacking to allow the long limb to clear the ground during swing phase.

Below are some videos I found that might be useful for understanding limb length and biomechanical assessments. 1 is very long and geeky the others are only a few mins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfKBT...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJeG7...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjPI7x1RHQg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNlVT...ture=endscreen

just wanted to thank everyone for your posts on this thread .... very helpful

and i need to go back and study them all and look at the video's above and everything

thanks for your advise, time and trouble guys

Sturunner your story is like mine, now midfoot/forefoot striking and getting better all the time.

Barnaby Bear, its a case of trying things out and finding the solution, gait anaylisis etc helps but don't be afraid to try. But as with all training if you change your form you need to build into it slowly

I believe to much is put inot the shoes correcting problems, your hip is a long way from your feet. strengthen your upper leg and glutes I would think is more appropriate.

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Cheers for them Andy (I'm too stupid by far for the phd thesis ) But I am finding it difficult to understand how it affects running (apart from if it was a large difference of say 40mm for example)? Running consists of being on one leg at a time. Assuming you had a difference in the femur of 5mm, you did a one legged squat, your pelvis would/could be level throughout the squat for either leg.
If you hopped from one leg to the other keeping the knee bent/soft surely it would be possible to keep the pelvis level as only one foot is on the ground?

Well you're heading in the right direction here. Running insoles make a huge difference to your running form and preventing injuries. Especially when you're running large distances. I use to have all sorts of injuries before I started wearing running insoles. Once I got them, my injuries magically disappeared and cut them basically in half.

If you're more serious about longer distances then your local shoe shop analysis ain't enough. You'll have to go to a podiatrist to get a proper gait analysis. They might even recommend you some orthotics. I myself have custom orthotics. They are super expensive but are suppose to last you for years. Mine has lasted for 10 years and still no issues. You'll just have to get them upgraded every year for a small fee of $50.

But if you're still not sure, just go down to your local running shop and get a pair of running insoles for about $30 and see how you go with them. They might feel a bit weird at first but thats because you're just getting use to a different gait. Let me know how you go ! Good luck !

i completely forgot i'd started this thread- my apologies and thanks for the info

yes the latest thing was that my physio strapped my left foot up to simulate what it would feel like to have a slight corrective insole - i ran with that and got calf pain which i have never had before - so it felt like we were correcting 1 problem by causing another

we decided that rather than trying to insert insoles and change the way i have been running for years we should just strengthen my left hip which was the reason for the pain (i have a weak left hip apparently)

since strengthening the hip i have had no pain for a while thankfully

the next 2 months are going to tell though cause i have 4 half marathons and now 2 full marathons

so erm..... we'll just see how the hip feels after that

i have no idea if my post makes any sense as i'm so tired....

thanks for your post and i will re read it in the morning again

thanks