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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

When I started running 11 months ago I bought a pair of trainers from the internet because they looked nice. They were Asics 3000 's.
A few months later I was forced to stop running because of pain in my right knee.

I took a few weeks off and decided to get my gait analysed at Runners Need in The City.
Apparently I have a neutral running style and was sold a pair of neutral Mizuno wave riders. All well and good.The knee problem cleared up with the new shoes . However I began to develop a new symptom. My left ankle began to get shooting pains.These have got steadily worse and in the last few months I get shooting pains in what appears to be the ankle bone as soon as I get up in the morning and all through the day.

What I was wondering is, could my left leg be slightly over pronating causing this ankle pain? I was thinking maybe I should try a pair of shoes with moderate anti pronation support.

Any ideas?

thanks
Ives
 

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Ives I agree, I would suspect it is caused by your foot rolling inwards. You might want to consider shortening your stride, over-pronation is often because people try and extend their stride. The further your foot goes out in front of your body, the more likely it is to pronate inward (because you have extended the leverage over your lower leg)

Shortening the stride will increase your cadence and improve your performance too. Lots of short quick strides.

If the pain is a tendonitis (could be) then it may take a while to clear up, but as long as it doesn't keep getting worse (and gradually reduces) then you know you have made a positive change.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks jonp.

I might be tempted to buy some shoes with mild pronation support.
Any recommendations?
 

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Ives, Sorry, I don't recommend running with any cushioning or support in shoes at all - as others will know ;)

I take the view that technique is the most important thing to look at to resolve running injuries and that shoes have very little to do with injury prevention, and may even add to problems if you stick lots of gizmos in the shoe.
 

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Ives, Sorry, I don't recommend running with any cushioning or support in shoes at all - as others will know ;)

I take the view that technique is the most important thing to look at to resolve running injuries and that shoes have very little to do with injury prevention, and may even add to problems if you stick lots of gizmos in the shoe.
tell us more!!

only having looked at running for a few months I've not been impressed by widgets and gadgets to fix problems..
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Ives, Sorry, I don't recommend running with any cushioning or support in shoes at all - as others will know ;)

I take the view that technique is the most important thing to look at to resolve running injuries and that shoes have very little to do with injury prevention, and may even add to problems if you stick lots of gizmos in the shoe.
So what do you run in?
Plimsoles? Bare feet?

You're probably right.
Most of the stuff we're told we need is just marketing to make us buy more stuff.
 

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Here is a collection of shoes I use (not exact colours though):

Puma H Street
http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/2/0/0/21/5/AAAAAjh78wMAAAAAACFUdQ.jpg

Puma Saloh
http://www.evangelistasports.com/images/P/shoes_puma_saloh_blue.jpg

New Balance RC130
http://img4.cherchons.com/400x400/45252401/New-Balance-RC130XLU.jpg

Adidas Adizero Pro
http://www.eastbay.com/images/products/large_w/075946_w.jpg

Inov8 F-Lite230 (for trails)
Inov-8 F-Lite™ 230


For those that don't know, I'm a Pose Method coach, so I believe running (like most other athletic events) is a skill sport, where you have to practice good technique to perform better. The number of running related injuries since the running boom in the 1970s hasn't decreased one bit right up to today (80% of runners are injured each year!!) despite supposed advances in technology. The thing is though, it is not about what shoe you run in at all - it's about what you do with your body. Most runners view the ground and "impact" as a negative consequence of running, something we should shield ourselves from. But if you look in nature we are the only creatures that "protect" ourselves from it, no other animal does. Contrary to popular opinion, the ground is our friend and it is through this interaction that we can move forward. Our body is designed for running on compact surfaces and it strives for stability. The more cushion you shove in, the harder your foot pushes through to try and find a stable platform. The more cushion the harder your foot lands, now there's a paradox!

Don't try and go out and run 5 miles barefoot straight away (you do need sensible adaption as well), but give it a go on some short cut grassy area and feel the ground on your feet, run up and down a bit and have a blast - they will reward you for it. :)
 

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One of my students just knocked 15 mins off his marathon PB without changing his training patterns....
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Do you need to be taught the Pose method, or can you pick it up yourself?
Is it just a case of taking shorter strides and leaning forward a bit?
 

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Ives,
You can learn it yourself through some help from the Pose tech website and forum (a most helpful place) and also using the Pose running book and/or DVD. It would be ideal if you could get to see a coach for a starter session right at the start to set you on the right path first though. It is easy to think you understand the principals but in fact got the wrong end of the stick.

Pose Method is actually incredibly simple in what you have to "do" (running is almost unbelievably simple in terms of what you have to "do" to do it well), but it can be very difficult for some people - mainly because it can be hard to stop doing all the bad things you might have been doing for ages. A coach can accelerate this process early on because they have many tips/tricks to avoid pitfalls.

To answer your questions directly -

1) what does it mean to "Take shorter strides"? Does that mean just don't stride as far forward, does it mean try and stop your leg going forward, does it mean tying to land under your body??? Actually the answer is none of the above. To land under your body requires you to "pull" your foot directly up when you run - visually you will see the running motion as a circle, but the action you "do" is just pull the foot up (not forward, not backward). What you see and what you do are *not* the same. You don't actually restrict anything when your run Pose, you just pull your ankle to an end position under your bum.

2) What does it mean to "lean forward"? Is that a big lean , a little lean, do I lean by putting my shoulders forward, or my hips forward? Again none of the above. Simply put, you run as if your body is sat slightly forward and over your ball of foot. Then you just release tension in your body (no muscling, no pushing, no driving your body forward, no sense of muscle tension...) and it will allow it to smoothly move forward.

Just for fun, try running backwards. Run slow backwards, then gradually speed up. Keep lightly lifting your feet off the ground so you release your body to move. See how the more you lean the faster you go? Also see how incredibly light it feels? Running backwards is how running forwards should feel - light, effortless, as if you are weightless when you run.

The biggest secret of good running is that you don't need to power it all trying to use muscles - that just get's you injured. Relax, enjoy it and you'll run faster.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Thanks Jon.
That's a very helpful answer.
I'll do a bit of research on the Pose method and see where it leads.

I did a lot of swimming over the summer and the Pose method seems analogous to the Total immersion method for swimming...treating it as a skill sport that encompasses a number of drills to perfect the technique which should result in sn effortless and efficient stroke

cheers
M
 

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Since I started running again I have had two gait analysis. On my first I could clearly see from the video that my right foot was shall we say all over the place. I pronate mildly on both feet. I was gait analysed this week and now just mildy pronate equally. So it appears my style has improved. I'm not trying to do anything different but do predominantly run off road in neutral trail shoes. You do run differently off road to on road, and seem to heel strike less. On the road I have mild pronation controlled road shoes. I can see the attraction in the pose method being mentioned but as has been mentioned I guess this takes time to achieve and in the meantime some sort of compromise might be needed. I can relate to the idea of running more free off road as thats what we as humans always did as hunter gatherers I guess. But for road running I am not so sure as we are not designed to run on such an unforgiving surface are we? So I'm sticking to my road shoes for now.
 

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I always like to go against the grain of discussions... so I won't make an exception here ;)

It's quite possible that one foot overpronates more than the other, I know this is the case for me. During gait analysis, make sure you watch what both feet do, and ensure the shoes do their job properly on both feet. It may be that you need some mild support, but I wouldn't just order something online - go into a running shop, try on a variety of makes/models to find the most comfortable (don't just accept the first pair you try on that suits your gait).

As runners fatigue, form can (and usually does) suffer, and pronation often worsens. I would agree that the POSE method is an efficient style of running, but it requires quite a step backwards to re-learn how to run, or rather un-learn what are considered to be bad running traits, and build up slowly for the body to adapt to this new style of running.

From a personal perspective, I made the decision when looking into POSE, NOT to abandon my running style (which was heel striking) and learn the POSE technique and instead continued as I was. This was after trying a session using POSE technique and my muscles were aching like they'd never ached before - I wasn't prepared to take the necessary step back in my training load to adapt.

With the correct trainers I've not suferred any injuries (other than minor muscle aches from overtraining - which would be the same with any running style) running in the way I do, and my running has consistently improved in this way - I feel I'm a better (faster) runner now than I would be if I'd stopped to adapt to POSE. As my pace has increased, I find I have naturally started running further up the foot (heelstriking less intensiely) and especially at race pace, during track sessions and at the start of most runs I'd say I was landing on the midfoot. But for most runs this reverts back to heelstriking once I settle into a rythym.

I believe the body is a pretty clever thing and knows what it's doing - the body always reverts to the running style it is most comfortable in sustaining for any distance. I bet if you sprint a short distance, you'll run more on your forefoot or midfoot - because it's appropriate to the speed and distance, try running with the same technique over a longer distance and the body will be telling you it's not comfortable sustaining that method for longer periods and will revert to a more conservative running style that it's happy with - disagree with it and you'll have very sore and achey muscles (moreso than normal anyway) ;)

Looking at the World's most elite athletes, some will land on the forefoot, some will land midfoot, and some will heelstrike - there's no harm in continuing to run however feels comfortable if you have suitable trainers.

Just my tuppence :)
 

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I believe the body is a pretty clever thing and knows what it's doing - the body always reverts to the running style it is most comfortable in sustaining for any distance. I bet if you sprint a short distance, you'll run more on your forefoot or midfoot - because it's appropriate to the speed and distance, try running with the same technique over a longer distance and the body will be telling you it's not comfortable sustaining that method for longer periods and will revert to a more conservative running style that it's happy with - disagree with it and you'll have very sore and achey muscles (moreso than normal anyway)
To counter :d

What would you say to someone who ran okay and then always started to get lots of pain after about 5 miles. So basically they could never increase their mileage as it was too painful, even if they could run say 3 miles relatively pain free?

This is actually someone I started working with only last week. Is it simply the lucky/blessed ones who's bodies are able to revert to a "comfortable" style of their own? Are some of us simply "born not to run", obviously I don't think that is the case at all.

Adaption of our body plays a part of course, but if our body fundamentally isn't working the way evolution made it to (and this is my disagreement with padded heels in shoes - much the same as the author of born to run above) then some speed or some distance will stop you in your tracks: 80% or runners each year unfortunately would not be able to agree with you, through statistics alone.
 

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i'm not a fan of this stuff but i have found (from personal experience) that for me to run fast i have to increase my foot turnover. this is just what i do, and its second nature to me now. it's like i cant run faster if i dont increase foot turnover and whereas before i used to think everyone was like this i'm pretty sure i run a little different from most (perhaps other people increase their stride length but i clearly have a faster foot turnover than others). it wasnt so obvious to me until i started track because i didnt have much exposure to other people running fast but after training a few months on the track i see a difference very clearly. it's like when i'm racing someone going very fast on the track i'm going plat-plat-plat-plat whereas the guy in front is taking less steps and doing the same speed - so i can see i'm doing more steps than most. i'm not sure why but this just how i run. i dont see how else to run fast, it's second nature now to do it like this.

as for style, i think that as a side effect of running with lots of little steps liike this i have to (by default) land with bent knees with the feet landing closer in so the stride length is less. if on your heels you slow down a bit you wouldnt keep up with the 'plat-plat-plat-plat' i'm doing but your stride length is longer. i'm not sure how clear that is but that was my take on it. not really sure if my way is better - but you can run fast either way.

all in all, i would not call myself a pose runner, in any shape or form. i do disagree with a lot of what they are about and what they do and they way they advertise and the barefoot shoes advertised and the website etc., but however much i dislike the branding i think i have developed a style with some similarities so perhaps i shouldnt be so cynical but personally i wouldnt get so caught about running style. life is fully of criticism from people making you paranoid about what you are doing and putting doubt into your abilities, if you have people telling you that you are running 'wrong' you can get so paranoid about it and then in the end it wont help you. life is too short for silly worries like that. in the end of the day people do it differently - doesnt mean to say that one way is best for all - there's a vast spectrum of runners and how you run is something that you might find very hard to change. i'd aim for some simple smaller changes, rather than a complete revamp, as this is much easier to do.

that's my take on it. best of luck.
 

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Hi, please help ... I have always ran in Brookes GTS 17 without any problems, I bought a pair of brookes gts 18 and after 5 miles (previously running 8-10 miles) my ankle became very painful and resulted in me taking a 6 months break from running whilst I had extensive physio and podiatry inserts made. I went back to my really old GTS 17 and a year later I’ve not had a single problem. I now NEED to replace my GTS 17 as they are hanging off my feed and I am very nervous. I cannot get a new pair of GTS 17 anywhere. I need a trainer with a slightly higher support around the ankle and maximum arch support too. Can anyone make any recommendations please? Thank You.
 
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