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Discussion Starter #1
Just wondering what would be considered a normal frequency in terms of having poor runs and the warning signs and causes aside from the obvious illness and fatigue, if any.

Im about 6 weeks into running outside and have been having one shocker every week to 10 days it would seem.Is that normal "c'est la vie" type stuff or do I need to have a look at what Im doing for a cause ?

Ive seen many posts where forum people have had an unexpected nightmare and happily posts describing an opposite experience so Ive put my poor attempts in context and don't dramatise them too much.

Ive established that its not just psychological as the heart rate monitor thing shows my heart rate to be higher than normal on these bad days and breathing is rapid and erratic. Today was actually the shortest run Ive ever done at 1.3 miles. Normally I do 3 - 3.5 miles.
 

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Don't know about frequency, as I stopped having bad days a while back.

I realised that even if I found it hard to run on a particular day, and felt I was suffering more than I should, getting through it still seems to pay off when the "good" runs come again. Don't know if it's a psychological thing.

If you're having a regular bad run it may be worth looking at your pattern. Are the long runs and speedwork (say), crammed up against each other, is there adequate rest provision after hill work, etc.

Hope you get it sorted :)
 

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Rob made a few good points in his post, definately agree with looking at your schedule and trying to identify what happened before and after your bad day. If your bad run is happening weekly, it might be the same thing causing the problem.

I think there wouldn't be any "normal" frequency of bad days, as every runner is different. Personally I find that three or four bad sessions in a row would make me look at my training plan.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I havent got any real variation to my training at the moment. I just go out and hope to plod 3.5 miles. So I guess it can't be anything technical like hill training days to close together etc.

The only thing the last couple of "mares" have in common is that they were done 48 hours after my last run outside as opposed to 72 (usually I do a treadmill session inbetween the outdoor runs) but thats hardly OTT. I was angry on both of them as well come to think of it. Im always angry though :lol: I shall keep putting all the details into that mapmyrun and see if I can see any patterns I guess.
 

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The only thing the last couple of "mares" have in common is that they were done 48 hours after my last run outside as opposed to 72 (usually I do a treadmill session inbetween the outdoor runs) but thats hardly OTT.
Maybe the treadmill sessions are the cause - you might not be fully recovered from them before doing you're outdoor run (and vice versa). It might be worthwile dropping a treadmill session the day before your outdoor run.

Also, how many days are you training a week?
 

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Vaughan, I recommend lots of base slow pace running to start out. Lots of recovery; build the mileage first (before speed), as this will help your muscles,tendons adapt more gradually. Your muscles and tendons will adapt more slowly than your cardiovascular system. If you have a heart rate monitor, you should be able to recover back to roughly 120-130bpm within 1.5 mins after your run - if not, it was too fast. Lots of easy running now will also give you great mental confidence.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for the advice guys. I actually explained my routine inaccuratley. I dont ever run on consecutive days, its every other day, and alternating between treadmill and outdoor. I was wondering if it was the partial transition to all outdoor that was the problem, but then I actually find running outside easier than treadmill (@ 2%)
Generally on one of the rest days per week I do weights as well, though nothing for legs.

jonp - when you say slow, how slow is slow ? I only run at 6.5mph now. I tend to try and keep the HR in the upper 160's and below 172 as I plod along unless its a hill when the element of choice is removed , ha .
The strange thing on the bad days has been that if my heart rate is at 165bpm, which is usually comfortable, my body and breathing is reacting like it does at 175+ , weird eh !

I had another poor one today giving up on the smallest of gradients but at least it was a little better ( a bit over two miles) I didn't wear the heart rate monitor as I decided in my paranoia that the elastic around my chest was a possible cause :lol: (and the weather, the time of day, choice of attire, cursed t shirt, worn trainers ) What a freak

I will just carry on. I guess Im not going to be the only human on earth who defies the science behind adaption to exercise on a permanent basis so eventually I will catch up again and surpass the old mark I set.
 

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Vaughan,
It's different for each person. You're currently running at 9.5 mm pace. You can use various calculators to give your working heart rate (WHR) based on your max hr (MHR) and resting hr (RHR). Easy pace is just that - you should not be out of breath and it should feel very comfortable (able to talk etc).

I use the 120-130 bpm recovery in 1.5mins because it is the same for everyone no matter age or MHR,RHR etc. It's also a measure of recovery which is a metric that most people completely ignore and yet I find it is the best one to gauge actual fitness level. It is also a measure that can be used for advanced runners (e.g. doing high intensity interval training). Each interval should recover to 120-130 in 1.5min before you start the next repeat. No matter what distance or speed.

Going back to easy running, you want to finish your run feeling like you could keep on going - just light fatigue. You can never fail in your training since all you must do is maintain a steady easy HR and slow down if it goes too high. If you plan to do a race then you can start doing speed work 6 weeks before.

Your anaerobic fitness can be maxed within just 12 weeks. You aerobic one, well if you keep at it can keep progressing year after year. If you train fast all the time you risk plateauing unless you have great mental strength (but that is a different topic).
 

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Thanks for the advice guys. I actually explained my routine inaccuratley. I dont ever run on consecutive days, its every other day, and alternating between treadmill and outdoor. I was wondering if it was the partial transition to all outdoor that was the problem, but then I actually find running outside easier than treadmill (@ 2%)
Generally on one of the rest days per week I do weights as well, though nothing for legs.

jonp - when you say slow, how slow is slow ? I only run at 6.5mph now. I tend to try and keep the HR in the upper 160's and below 172 as I plod along unless its a hill when the element of choice is removed , ha .
The strange thing on the bad days has been that if my heart rate is at 165bpm, which is usually comfortable, my body and breathing is reacting like it does at 175+ , weird eh !

I had another poor one today giving up on the smallest of gradients but at least it was a little better ( a bit over two miles) I didn't wear the heart rate monitor as I decided in my paranoia that the elastic around my chest was a possible cause :lol: (and the weather, the time of day, choice of attire, cursed t shirt, worn trainers ) What a freak

I will just carry on. I guess Im not going to be the only human on earth who defies the science behind adaption to exercise on a permanent basis so eventually I will catch up again and surpass the old mark I set.
I noticed you lift on one of your rest days - this will still affect, despite not doing legs. I'd maybe suggest taking three or four days rest and not do any training, just to give yourself a chance to recover fully. You might run a bit better after that.
 

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I'm going to go against the grain a little (why not eh? ;))...

Your training schedule doesn't sound particularly motivating to me - either running on the treadmill, or just trying to plod around 3-3.5 miles... I'd suggest it could potentially be the mind being 'fed-up' of the same old...

If your HR is increasing also, there could well be a pysiological aspect to it - perhaps including a nutritional aspect? But if there's enough variation in the training schedule, and you're looking forward to getting out the door - then you'd be surprised at what a difference it can make!

Are your routes the same/similar for each run? You might not even have to consider different intensity workouts, but perhaps just drive somewhere 5miles away and run a completely new route?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I have two routes. And it is always the same one thats rubbish. Ive just started a 3rd new one thats kind of an aspirational route as its beyond what I can do. 5.2 miles in a loop. Its hard for me because at the 3 mile mark which has previously been about my limit there is a steep incline for maybe a third of a mile and that just finishes me and ruins my time , ha !
I did it today and I was slow but surpassed my previous marker by actually making it to the top of the hill (although every outbreath was involuntarily an "Aaagh" noise) so maybe a new mental challenge is what is needed as you say.
Jonp's advice is good I think and I will implement that idea in my treadmill sessions as its a little difficult to do on my outdoor ones as I can't exercise that degree of control over my heart rate due to the frequency of hills in every choice of direction.
 

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good to hear!!!

One comment though... you mention it's got a steep hill that ruins your time?... forget about the bloody time! :p Better to manage the whole loop in what you feel is a slow time rather than only make half of it in a reasonable time!

If you do want to monitor your times... time how long it takes you to do the full 5.2mile loop... even if that includes the time walking the last 2 miles home - realistically you can only reasonably compare times on the same route when there's hills involved ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Good idea, I will do . I kind of new I should just monitor the time for the full 5.2 mile , walking included but it was too demoralising. I tend to stop running and then thats it, no walk run walk run to add more so I switch off the brain and the watch as soon as I stop.

Bored of being stuck at 3.5 miles now !
 

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Run/walking is a great way to build distance. You will be running all the way before you know it as you find you get to the point where you push that little bit.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hrun when doing the run walk thing are you supposed to leave something in the tank each time so the periods of running are a little more even?
I tend to run until I can't go on then stop and the reason I don't do any more is because 1) Im a wimp and 2) After the first one which might be 30 minutes of running any further attempts have my heart rate and level of fatigue up to max in about 2 minutes so I tend to wonder if there is any point doing it.
Would it be a better idea to try and do 3x 15 minutes of running ?
 

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yeah i think the idea with run/ walks is to stop before you burn out
and then gradually increase the run amounts
 

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Just re-read this thread and noticed your run is at 6.5 mph. My first run for a full 30 mins was at 5 mph so it may be you are trying to hard.

My feeling is when racing or experienced you can run til the tank is empty, but in the early stages your body is not used to it so you should run just below your max ability.

Therefore if you can run for 30 minutes at a pace, either run slower for the same time or run at the same speed for 20 minutes. Then stop!

It won't be long until you can run forever, but whilst you build the mileage and your body gets used to things give it a chance.
 

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One comment though... you mention it's got a steep hill that ruins your time?... forget about the bloody time! :p Better to manage the whole loop in what you feel is a slow time rather than only make half of it in a reasonable time!;)

Gotta agree with this comment and all others that state you should build the mileage before the speed. Run easy, build the distance you run gradually and as you improve so will your time :). But at the moment - forget about the time !!
 
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