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Discussion Starter #1
Ok so I am 65kgs. If I run 2hrs I lose around 1.5 to 2 kgs of weight (in fluids I assume). As I am training for some mountains marathons, I am trying to workout how much fluid and nutrition I should be taking in per hour.

When I ran mountain marathon last year the nutrition plan went downhill very fast as I just could not handle the taste of gels after first 2 hrs of running, even though in training I could take gels :lol:

This year I am planning to concentrate on Banana and Dates only. How many gms should I be consuming every hour?

SALT- When I run or exercise my cap gets covered in few small salt patches from sweat. Does that mean I am losing too much salt or does it mean that my diet has too much salt and I need to reduce it? I normally don't add salt to any food I eat and my blood pressure is low.

Sorry for rambling, I don't know what I am asking exactly myself :wacko:
 

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SALT- When I run or exercise my cap gets covered in few small salt patches from sweat. Does that mean I am losing too much salt or does it mean that my diet has too much salt and I need to reduce it? I normally don't add salt to any food I eat and my blood pressure is low.
I can only refer to what I've read from Tim Noakes
http://www.enduranceplanet.com/dr-tim-noakes-and-dr-phil-maffetone-guide-to-hydration-and-electrolytes-hyponatremia-prevention-and-why-health-matters-above-all/

Why we don’t need more water/fluids nor electrolytes and how our body has buffering mechanisms for sodium and that those mechanisms correct any sodium imbalances

Noakes argues that the sodium content of your drinks makes little difference; what matters, rather, is how much you drink. If you drink too much, your sodium levels will drop, perhaps dangerously


can also Google on this matter, e.g.
https://www.runnersworld.co.uk/nutrition/how-much-salt-do-runners-really-need

I also get salt patches on my cap and above my eyebrows/on my temples after long runs, but I've never made any changes to my diet to fix that per se.. or taken extra sodium after the race to restore sodium lost through sweat
 

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Just do plenty of long runs up in the mountains and you'll soon learn what you require nutrition and hydration-wise. It's important as your needs are different in the mountains, what you learn on road or trail runs isn't transferrable I found. One major factor when racing in the mountains though is weight, so know where every drinks station or usable drinking source (rivers etc.) are before race day, water is REALLY heavy, last marathon I did in the mountains (a 'mountain marathon' is actually a specific discipline which is normally much more demanding than just a marathon distance race in a mountain environment) I didn't carry a drop of water, it makes life so much easier (and a LOT faster) on long ascents.

I think for a mountain race though, the real work is done before you start, a few hours before you want to be eating a lot, as much as you can really, so finding some food you can comfortably stuff yourself which doesn't upset you, or make you need a #2 during the race is probably even more vital than what you eat during the race. I'm all for real food, eat what you know and your body shouldn't give you any nasty reactions. For me my last big meal of choice before such a race is bulgar wheat salad with a variety of veg and mackerel, then during the race I won't really eat that much really, pecans, walnuts and beef jerky are great for grazing on though, I only ever take gels if I REALLY want to need the toilet and have stomach pains for the entire duration of a race.
 

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Just do plenty of long runs up in the mountains and you'll soon learn what you require nutrition and hydration-wise. It's important as your needs are different in the mountains, what you learn on road or trail runs isn't transferrable I found. One major factor when racing in the mountains though is weight, so know where every drinks station or usable drinking source (rivers etc.) are before race day, water is REALLY heavy, last marathon I did in the mountains (a 'mountain marathon' is actually a specific discipline which is normally much more demanding than just a marathon distance race in a mountain environment) I didn't carry a drop of water, it makes life so much easier (and a LOT faster) on long ascents.

I think for a mountain race though, the real work is done before you start, a few hours before you want to be eating a lot, as much as you can really, so finding some food you can comfortably stuff yourself which doesn't upset you, or make you need a #2 during the race is probably even more vital than what you eat during the race. I'm all for real food, eat what you know and your body shouldn't give you any nasty reactions. For me my last big meal of choice before such a race is bulgar wheat salad with a variety of veg and mackerel, then during the race I won't really eat that much really, pecans, walnuts and beef jerky are great for grazing on though, I only ever take gels if I REALLY want to need the toilet and have stomach pains for the entire duration of a race.
I don't think I could disagree with this bit anymore if I tried. :p Why do you want to fill your belly up with a load of food a few hours before you are about to run? My advice is that the 2 days before are actually the most important parts of pre-race nutrition, let the body fully digest the food and get rid of what you don't need, running whilst the body is digesting and processing a big meal is, in my experience, not a good idea especially when running downhill. Having said that a lot of this is dependent on the intensity of the race, the longer the race, the slower the pace and therefore the easier to digest food.
 

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Just do plenty of long runs up in the mountains and you'll soon learn what you require nutrition and hydration-wise. It's important as your needs are different in the mountains, what you learn on road or trail runs isn't transferrable I found. One major factor when racing in the mountains though is weight, so know where every drinks station or usable drinking source (rivers etc.) are before race day, water is REALLY heavy, last marathon I did in the mountains (a 'mountain marathon' is actually a specific discipline which is normally much more demanding than just a marathon distance race in a mountain environment) I didn't carry a drop of water, it makes life so much easier (and a LOT faster) on long ascents.
Not carrying water is not an option in a lot of races in my experience, often they say you must carry at least 0,5l if not more.

I think for a mountain race though, the real work is done before you start, a few hours before you want to be eating a lot, as much as you can really, so finding some food you can comfortably stuff yourself which doesn't upset you, or make you need a #2 during the race is probably even more vital than what you eat during the race. I'm all for real food, eat what you know and your body shouldn't give you any nasty reactions. For me my last big meal of choice before such a race is bulgar wheat salad with a variety of veg and mackerel, then during the race I won't really eat that much really, pecans, walnuts and beef jerky are great for grazing on though, I only ever take gels if I REALLY want to need the toilet and have stomach pains for the entire duration of a race.
I'm with Stu on this, can't think of anything worse than stuffing myself in the hours before a race. The night before, sure, but on the morning of it. Last race I did (64km, 2200d+) I had a peanut butter sandwich about an hour before, but that was it.
I am also quite fine on gels, I have experimented, I know they work for me, they don't affect my stomach and go down easily. I hate things like nuts or anything too chewy, just not nice to eat and run in my experience.

But then I also recognise that everyone is different, and what works for one is not what others can / should / want to do ;)





Personally I know I lose a lot of salt when I run. I drink to thirst, but if I run with a drink that has salts I will have less cramp issues at the end than if I run with a drink that has no salts.

There is a discussion on hynoatremia here - http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/salt.html - though referencing triathletes rather than runners it is still relevant.

For my next race I plan on using a combination of tailwind drink (which contains sodium in both cirtate and chloride form), SiS energy gels, water, and whatever real food is available at the aid stations (sandwiches, biscuits, jelly babies etc). But I will also have some salt tablets in my pack, just in case.
 

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To both the above.

The whole point is you don't fill your belly up, as I said you eat a load of food that won't upset you a few hours before the start, so by the start you're not full, I find I can shove a shed load of energy packed bulgar wheat down me a few hours before a run and feel light, energised and ready to push at the start.

When I a reply to a post such as this, you can rest assured it's from my own personal experience which I found works for me, and I swear by! I was born in Snowdonia and live in Snowdonia, I train and race in the mountains regularly and am VERY comfortable with my knowledge of comfortably running marathon distances in mountain environments as I do it often.

Of course if a race stipulates carrying a minimum amount of water then you have to, I've never ran a race personally where this was stipulated though.

I respect other people's views and opinions, part of the whole point of a forum is that the op reads through the varying viewpoints and works out for themselves what they like the sound of.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
So I did a 20k quiet hilly trail run for 2hrs. Drank only pure water to thirst and did not eat anything (food or gels). After 20k I was ok but felt bit shitty. You know the semi vomiting feeling in the chest region and the feeling why am I doing this etc.

The next 20k run I did, everything was same but I ate dates regularly throughout the run. After finishing the run I felt great.

I am going for another 20k now so will repeat the experiment again with dates. If I feel good then dates might be my main food source. I will add banana in the mix in the coming weeks as they offer bananas at the event.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Regarding stuffing. I can't run with a truly stuffed belly :p

What I do is get up 3-4hrs early on race day and if I have a good morning bowel emptying session then I move on to eating white bread, peanut butter, potato etc.

So by the time I have to run, the belly has already dealt with the digestion part a bit.

Unfortunately the last mountain marathon I ran, I had bad belly/diarrhoea that started 2 days before race day. So I was pretty drained when I started the actual marathon :d
 

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Just to clarify, I said 'A FEW' hours before, to me a few hours means 3 to 4 hours, I also said a food you can comfortably stuff yourself with. Bulgar Wheat as I specify works for me, and really doesn't feel heavy in the stomach at all, plus it digests really quickly. I wouldn't suggest standing on the start line with a stuffed stomach!

It sounds like your training is going well, one thing I always do leading up to any mountain race is study the route in minute detail, study the elevation profile, the terrain etc. Then (if possible) I recce the route and also find training routes that are as close to the route as possible.
 

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I think the most important thing is to do lots of test runs with your chosen fueling plan. I switched to a low carb diet about 10 months ago, mainly for health benefits but a big plus is how well I burn fat. I did a 32 mile very hilly event (it included Honister pass) and drank a couple of cups of water and had nothing to eat. I felt great at the end. However I am running Hadrian's wall in June so I am experimenting with pizza with olive oil, unsweetened peanut butter, baby bells and walnuts.

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Ok so I did the 22km hilly trail run fuelled by dates only and I felt like crap at the end of the run (ok during the run though).

I just don't understand why sometimes I feel great and sometimes not so great. Everything being mostly equal :happy:

Sometimes I get home after a run and have vomiting feeling, try putting couple of grapes in my mouth and feel as if I will throw up but don't actually ever throw up. Sleep 30mins and feel brand new and then am able to murder tons of grapes.
 

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Just reading an article about Josh Griffiths who finished 13th in the London Marathon on Sunday, and he said he woke at 5am before the race to eat a meal of rice and Salmon, so my advice of eating bulgar wheat (similar carb source to rice) and Mackerel a few hours before a marathon wasn't so terrible!
 

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Just keep experimenting, I personally wouldn't eat or drink a thing during a 22km training run on the trails, but I would be very aware of what I was eating and drinking in the hours leading up to the run and start it fully fuelled and hydrated.
 
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