3.15 is realistic but you'll need to work on your endurance, try and increase your mid week run to 10+ miles and try and do a few miles at target MP, get your weekend run up to 20 and beyond ASAP

 

I agree with Stu, you have about the right pace over the half, now get some 20+ milers in and you have a good shout!

 

Cheers guys. Any pointers on the pacing of the 20 milers?

I'm also building the mid week runs up to 10+ miles over the next couple of weeks. I did 8.5 this week, but was still suffering a bit from the HM on Sunday. Fitting the 10 miler in is a bit tricky - I can do a 7 in my lunch break, but anything more than 7 or 8 and I need to try and find a different time to fit that in, so I guess it's gonna be some early mornings for me!

Is it all about endurance now, or should I be working on speed as well?

Thanks for the advice!

 

Marathon pace (7.26 min/mile pace) For the 20 milers,

 

I've never done my long run at anything other than easy pace and I've met all my goals. I think you should go with what feels right.

 

Aiming for a 3.15 marathon following a sub-90 half sounds fairly reasonable to me - the McMillan calculator suggests that a 1.30 half is roughly equivalent to a 3.10 marathon (assuming appropriate training, of course).

The long runs are more about spending time on your feet than anything, so do them at a fairly comfortable pace - if you've been under 90 minutes for a half, maybe in the 8.00 to 8.30/mile range?

 

Well if nobody minds, I'm going to post my training here as a bit of a log. Somebody in future might find it useful if they are in the same boat (i.e. middle aged bloke aiming for a sub 3:15 first marathon...). I might not make it, but it won't be for lack of trying - I'll probably blow to pieces at 20 miles and end up struggling to finish in under 4 hours, in which case this might serve as a useful log of 'how not to train for a sub 3:15 first marathon'! :lol:
Anybody else is free to join in if they have similar goals, and if anybody has any advice or thinks I'm doing things completly wrong, then feel free to point out the error of my ways...

So yesterday's LSR was an 18 miler. A tough 18 miler off-road on the South Downs and *very* hilly (total elevation gain of 1815 foot). Absolutely impossible to run a constant pace, but did a total of 18.15 miles in 2:27:33, which is an average pace of 8:08 varying between 9:07 slowest mile and 6:45 for the fastest mile (and pretty much everything in between along the way.) Overall I was well pleased with the run given the terrain, and I seemed to have bounced back fairly quickly with very little achiness or soreness this morning. I am convinced that recovery is the key to getting decent runs in, and a combination of recovery drinks, compression gear, foam rollering and an ice cold bath seem to be working well for me. Some of the younger runners here can probably get away with a couple of pints and a roast dinner, but I'm having to take recovery a bit more seriously!
Anyway, today is a rest day for me. I always take one rest day, and sometimes two if I feel I need an extra day, or more often my work schedule makes it impossible to run when I want to, so there is an enforced rest day.

Plan for this week is to increase my midweek medium run to 10 miles as Stu suggested (I planned to do this anyway as I have been keeping the midweek run about half the distance of the LSR).

Summary of my week for last week (coming off the back of a fairly hard half marathon last Sunday):

[Sunday (Brighton Half) - 1:29:29]

Mon - REST
Tue - 4.08 miles - 37:07 - (9:05 pace) - recovery run
Wed - 4.15 miles - 34:07 - (8:13 pace)
Thu - 8.78 miles - 1:12:02 - (8:12 pace) - off road - hilly
Fri - REST
Sat - 4.07 miles - 33:43 - (8:17 pace)
Sun - 18.15 miles - 2:27:33 - (8:08 pace) - off road - very hilly

TOTAL - 39.24 miles - average pace 8:16

7 weeks to go...

:worried:

 

sounds like a good week - I'm doing similar mileage in training for London and looking to beat my pb of 3.44. Interesting to see that your fastest miles of the week are for your hilly 'lsr'! Do you have any speedier or interval sessions planned?

 

Interesting to see that your fastest miles of the week are for your hilly 'lsr'! Do you have any speedier or interval sessions planned?

one of the main reasons for this is that my Sunday LSR is part of a group training run and I find it much, much easier to do a decent-paced run with others than I do when on my own. I also recognise that my weekday running is probably a bit on the slow side and I want to do something to rectify this - I do plan to try and put some more marathon-pace running into my midweek longer run, probably by running that more on the flat and less of the hilly-off-road that I have been doing recently - I just find it a bit boring trotting up and down the sea front...
I've got no current plans to start any 'proper' speed work - I think my half marathon time indicates that I have enough speed and just need to work on endurance, but over the rest of the schedule I need to 'program' myself into running 7:20 minute miles. I might also do a few parkruns to test myself and tune-up my speed before the marathon, although I am a bit wary of high-speed running because of the risk of injury.
I do also think that I might be doing the LSR a bit quick, but as long as I enjoy it and manage to bounce back fairly quickly without it wiping me out for the whole week, then I see it (perhaps wrongly...) as a real quality session of both pace and endurance. I am thinking of doing a LSR on my own, running for time rather than distance sometime in the next few weeks - this would probably be a 3:15 - 3.30 hour run on my own at whatever pace feels comfortable - the distance will be unimportant.
I'm not really following any strict program or schedule, so mostly running on feel with a vague and flexible rough plan in the back of my mind - I'm open to suggestions and changes where necessary.

 

I should probably add that my midweek runs this week were in the shadow of last weekend's half marathon so were run with somewhat heavy legs and without any real pacing in mind. I agree though that I do need to pick up the pace for some of the midweek running. Whether or not I manage to do that is something else entirely...

 

As I need to pick up the pace a bit during the week, I did exactly that during today's run:

5.11 miles in 37:45 - Average pace of 7:24mm

This would be almost perfect 3:15 marathon pacing were it not for the fact that my mile splits were:

7:44 (warmup?)
7:08 (no excuses...)
6:50 (sprint from nasty dog...)
7:23 (perfect pace!)
7:46 (cool down?)

Terrain was a bit hilly and mostly on grass, which explains the lack of consistency a bit.

I'm going to work on the marathon pacing stuff and faster running slowly because intensity is what has always left me injured in the past. Even today, my legs are feeling it a bit - I thought I was pretty much fully recovered after Sunday's 18 miler but clearly not - this is the stuff that injuries are made of for me.
I have also tried not to increase mileage and intesity during the same week, which has basically meant that it's the mileage only that has been increasing. I do feel that I need to start sharpening up a bit though - I have a 19:59 parkrun PB which is due to be destroyed soon...
Probably an easy run for me tomorrow, (probably short as well due to work comitments) hopefully followed by a 10 miler on Thursday where I will pick up the pace for a few of the miles.

 

Hello again Nick - following your training with interest as I'm in a similar boat and your experiences remind me of my training for London 2010. I surprised myself with a 1.37 Bath half that year and revised my goal for the marathon from anything sub 4 to feeling I could get close to 3.30. This feeling was compounded when I did the Cranleigh 21 miles at 8.04/mile a few weeks before (that's 3.31 marathon pace). I'd picked up a slight niggle the week before London but got to the start with a mental aim of 8min/mile. This was soon forgotten as I hadn't anticipated just how crowded it would be - I'd put 4 hours as a target time on my entry form so was towards the back. Consequently I got frustrated and didn't enjoy the run. I was feeling it by half way and staggered in at 3.54 which I was disappointed with. This year I will start slow and let my pace find me rather than indulging in obsessive garmin watching. i want to enjoy the day and with this mentality I reckon I can get under 3.40 My training's going well at the moment - I did 21.75 miles on Sunday at 8.30/mile which is 3.42 pace. Started very comfortable and quickened throughout. I'm doing 2 or 3 mid week runs - 10k up to 10 miles, and including some fast/slow intervals in the shorter runs. No formal plan though. Good luck and keep posting your progress.

 

Hi Supernaut, It sounds like you're well prepared and your training is going great. You also have the advantage of a previous marathon experience, so good luck with your goals this year - keep posting updates - it's good to compare notes!

I realise that me aiming for 3:15 is pretty ambitious for a first marathon and I suspect that the odds are well stacked against me. As long as I finish then I'll get a PB anyway, so I've not got a lot to lose. My biggest worry at the moment is actually making it to the start line - I have absolutely no problems putting in the hard work required other than the risks of injury (which worries me a fair bit!).

I'm really enjoying the running at the moment, especially the long runs. I find that getting off-road and onto the trails to be really motivating and uplifting - I think I am in danger of heading down the ultra-runner path because the longer I run for, the more I enjoy it. I find it hard to believe that people are training for marathons doing 20 mile runs on the pavements in the dark - I struggle to manage 5 miles in those conditions, I don't enjoy it and for me, the journey is more important than the end goal.
It will be an interesting couple of months from here, and I quite like not having a formal plan - I am not slavishly following a strict regime and if I fancy a day off I'll have one.

 

Update from me for the week...

It's been a good week this week - got my first 20 miler out of the way this morning in the wind and rain, and managed to put in a few miles this week at marathon pace (and quicker), including the last 5 miles of this mornings 20 miler, so quite pleased with that.
Next week is an 'easy' week - I haven't decided yet quite how easy or how long I'm going next Sunday, I'm just going to go by feel and let my body catch up with the past few weeks of training. I might try and get a sports massage sometime in the week as well.

Summary of the week:

Mon - REST
Tue - 5.11 miles - 37:45 - (7:24 pace)
Wed - 4.12 miles - 33:56 - (8:14 pace)
Thu - 10.53 miles - 1:26:00 - (8:10 pace) - off road - hilly
Fri - REST
Sat - 5.03 miles - 38:48 - (7:43 pace)
Sun - 20.12 miles - 2:37:52 - (7:51 pace)

TOTAL - 44.91 miles - average pace 7:53

6 weeks to go...

 

Hi Nick, sounds like a positive week. The 20 miler sounds really good with the speedier part coming at the end. Sounds like you're well on track. I've had a good week too. 42 miles in total with a good mixture of pace and distances. Let's hope it lasts!

 

Yep - it was a good week and I'm feelling pretty good at the moment. I've got no injuries or serious niggles, but my legs are feeling pretty beaten-up and in need of a few easy days. I've booked a massage for Wednesday, and I plan to treat the week as a recovery week.
I haven't decided quite what I'm doing next Sunday yet - I have to fly overseas on Business in the afternoon anyway and I only have an easy day planned, so somewhere between 13 and 16 miles early in the morning will fit well I think.

The following few weeks are more of a puzzle for me - With just six weeks to go, I want to get two more 20+ mile runs in before the taper, but nor sure what to do when. I want to top out at 22 or 23 miles, but not quite sure when to fit this in. I also want to do a slow run of 3:15 - 3:30 based on time rather than distance. Any advice on the last few weeks would be most welcome!

Supernaut - glad to hear your training is going well and a 42 mile week sounds like good preparation. Which marathon are you doing anyway?

 

I'm doing London, so the week after yours. My long run plans with 7 weeks to go are
20+ this Sunday,
then a 17/18,
then a 21 (this is a race but will treat it as a training run, this will be my last 20+)
then a half marathon (another race - this time I'll b looking for a pb)

I'll then be three weeks away from the marathon and not quite sure what my longest after that will be but I imagine I'll be thinking about tapering...

 

Update from me:

A step-down week for me this week. Some well needed rest and recovery. I've also picked up a couple of niggles over the last few weeks, so I wanted to try and give thme some chance to sort themselves out (which they haven't....)
All just relaxed, enjoyable running with no real worries about pace or distance:

Mon - REST
Tue - 4.18 miles - 34:11 - (8:10 pace)
Wed - REST and 1 hour of deep-tissue massage at physio. Felt like I'd done a 10 mile tempo run by the end of it...
Thu - 7.16 miles - 1:00:24 - (8:26 pace) - off road - hilly
Fri - REST
Sat - 7.06 miles - 55:34- (7:52 pace)
Sun - 13.68 miles - 1:58:56 - (8:42 pace) - off road - very hilly!

TOTAL - 32.09 miles - average pace 8:23

Actually Saturday's numbers above are a bit misleading as they were actually 2 miles warm-uo and 2 miles coold down with a Parkrun in the middle. I knew it was about time to sort the parkrun PB, so I took it from 19:59 down to 19:26, which is a decent improvement that I'm happy with.

Still a bit worried about the niggles - Calf/shin is playing up a bit and a bit of a pain in the quad. The quad pain doesn't worry me much, but the calf/shin issue is more of a concern. I did a 20 mler with both niggles last week, a parkrun PB on Saturday and a 13 miler today, so they are not really affecting my running, just a bit of a worry nevertheless. The pains go away after a few miles of running, but I'm still a bit worried...

Should I take a week off and try and sort the niggles once and for all, or just carry on and try and get the next two 20 milers under my belt over the next couple of weeks?

Cheers!

5 weeks to go...

 

Weekly update from me:

A pleasing week's running last week. It was a bit tricky fitting in runs at the start of the week becasue I was out of the country on business, but I still managed to squeeze in a couple of runs.
I seem to be having trouble keeping the pace down now, and keep finding myself running faster than marathon pace when I should be running easy. I guess that's a good thing - the training is definitely working, but I think I need to pay more attention to the pace and not get carried away!

Mon - REST
Tue - 4.18 miles - 30:04 - (7:12 pace)
Wed - 4.34 miles - 35:25 - (8:10 pace)
Thu - 9.13 miles - 1:08:36 - (7:31 pace) - (7 miles at or faster than MP)
Fri - REST
Sat - 5.19 miles - 40:38 - (7:49 pace)
Sun - 22.10 miles - 2:56:12 - (7:58 pace) - off road - extremely hilly!

TOTAL - 44.94 miles - average pace 7:49

Sunday's LSR was a good run. My longest run to date (and probably my longest now before the marathon) on an incredibly hilly off-road trail on the South Downs. Pace was little more than walking on the really steep bits and there were also a couple of really long hills that went on forever. The total elevation gain for the run was 1965 foot, and given the rugged trail conditions, I was very surprised to find that my average pace was under 8 minute miles.

Mentally, I am now happy that the bulk of the miles are now in the bag, so I'm going into self-preservation mode to try and avoid my niggles turning into injuries. I don't want to push myself too hard now, and I know that I can take an extra day's rest if I need it without it having any detrimental effect on the day.
Planning one more long run next weekend, but no real plan yet for time or distance. I would quite like to get a run in over 3:15 duration, so I might go for a slow plod for time rather than distance. Part of me wants to get a longer run, (maybe a 23 or 24 miler). Whatever it is, I will be happy if it's 18 miles or more - I'm also happy to delay it by a few days rather than forcing myself to do it on a Sunday morning. Basically, I'm playing it by ear based on a rough plan. I am quite looking forward to the taper now though. My legs are feeling a bit battered now and need a bit of time to recover...

less than 4 weeks to go...

 

great running Nick - I reckon you're well on course to achieve your goal. Not long now...

 

Update from me:

Missed one of my planned runs this week due to work schedules and had planned to switch my Friday rest day instead but that all went out of the window because of huge train delays on Friday night meaning that I would have had to go running at 11pm at night. It was only a 5 miler planned, and at this stage of the game I doubt it will make the slightest bit of difference anyway and the extra bit of rest probably did me more good.
I was still feeling the effects of last weeks tough 22 miler on Wednesday - I probably ran it a bit harder than I should have, so Tuesday was just a nice easy recovery run.

Mon - REST
Tue - 4.48 miles - 38:30 - (8:35 pace)
Wed - Enforced rest!
Thu - 10.16 miles - 1:19:56 - (7:52 pace) - (including a few at MP)
Fri - REST
Sat - 4.09 miles - 31:52 - (7:47 pace)
Sun - 22.15 miles - 2:55:25 - (7:55 pace)

TOTAL - 40.89 miles - average pace 7:58

Sunday was a great run - I hadn't really planned to do another 22 miler and I went out nice and easy running 8 min mile pace. The course was on road with a few hills including one big one. I started winding the pace up a bit at 15 miles, with a few 7:30 miles and was still feeling good at 20 miles, so I did the extra two. Last week the final two miles were pretty tough (and slow!) - this week it all felt quite easy and comfortable and I felt I could easily have carried on to 26 miles. The whole run just felt comfortable and was a nice confidence boost. This morning I feel almost completely recovered as well, which makes a change because I can normally still feel the long run in my legs on Tuesday or Wednesday
Also, as most of my long runs are off-road, it was good to get a 22 miler on pavements done.

So that's it - the long runs really are now in the bag and the taper starts with a rest day today. I have absolutely no idea what mileage or speed I should be doing now. I don't want to get injured now (obvioulsy!), but would like to concentrate on keeping a bit of speed in my legs for the next few weeks.
Not sure what to do next Sunday, but 15 miles sounds about right to me - I'll do a bit of reading on othere schedules and see how they manage the taper.
I might also pay a bit more attention to diet and make an effort to try and lose a pound or two over the next couple of weeks - every little helps...

Under 3 weeks to go...

 

Quick weekly update from me.

Added an extra rest day and cut the long run down to 15 miles. Evereything else was much as before, with a bit more emphasis on some faster paced running.

Mon - REST
Tue - 4.11 miles - 31:08 - (7:35 pace)
Wed - REST
Thu - 10.15 miles - 1:18:31 - (7:44 pace) Hilly, off road - (including 5 miles at MP or faster)
Fri - REST
Sat - 4.15 miles - 32:12 - (7:46 pace)
Sun - 15.05 miles - 1:55:07 - (7:39 pace)

TOTAL - 33.46 miles - average pace 7:41

Yesterday's LSR 15 miler was interesting and more proof that the training is working. first half was between 7:40 - 8:00 min miling which was really easy and conversational. Second half I picked the pace up a bit and even dropped in a couple of sub 7 minute miles, with the rest around marathon pace. It all just felt really easy and I felt fully recovered almost straight away!

Between now and marathon day, I've just got a couple of 10 milers planned and a few easy runs, with a real lazy final week.

Just 13 days to go now...

 

Sorry I am late to the party. I have been looking for information on the feasibility of 3:15 first time marathons for months and have finally stumbled on this thread.

I am running the London Marathon in three weeks time and have set myself a target of sub-3.15. I have built on a solid base of two years running without serious layoff and during this time I have raced a fair few 10k, 10M and half marathons.

Between October and Christmas I built up a steady mileage base and did a couple of 19-20 mile runs. This years training hasn't been perfect (issue with my IT band which my physio has helped me get under control) but overall it could have been a lot worse.

I raced a half marathon in mid-February with a pb of 1:27:34. My weekly mileage has typically been 40-50 miles for the last 9 weeks (post injury) with the odd lighter week necessitated by work commitments.

I have done virtally no speedwork (bar a few half-arsed interval sessions) and do not know what a hill looks like. That said, I have been religous when it comes to my long runs, the last six of which have been:

20 miles - 2:37
20 miles - 2:35
20 miles - 2:31
20 mles - 2:31
22 miles - 2:55
20 miles - 2:29 i.e. 3:15 race pace albeit out too fast and fadng post 16 miles

I am now tapering but starting to lose my bottle. 3:15 for a first marathon sounds like lunacy. Part of me thinks that pacing 3:20 or even 3:30 and enjoying the day may be wise. But then I am competitive and want to have a crack at it,so why not pace 3:15? The training says it is just about feasible and who knows I might have one of those flukey days and run 3:10 which means a GFA place in next year's race (I LOVE the London as I live on the route and watch it every year but hate the fact that I have a 1 in 10 chance of getting a place or have to raise mega bucks to take part in my home city marathon). But then I might have one of those other days and be left walking and crying at 24 miles struggling to get home under 4 hours!

Not sure what to do...?

 

@thefunrunner

Looking at your HM time and your training, I think a 3:15 is definitely on the cards for you, so I would go for it. Even if the wheels come off at 20 miles, you should get under 3:30 - that's my plan anyway!

Actually, my plan is to find the 3:15 pacer and go with them for the first half to keep me under control and then see how I feel after 13 miles. During my long runs, I do tend to get stronger as the distance progresses and interestingly, my heart rate tends to drop if I stick to a constant pace, so I am hoping to pick up the pace just a little bit in the second half if it feels good. If I don't blow to pieces by 20 miles, then I might go all out for the last 6 assuming I still have enough left in the tank...

Did a speedy 4 on Tuesday at 6:58 minute mile pace
rest day yesterday and a 10 miler this morning with the first 5 at easy pace and the last 5 supposedly at marathon pace. I wore my Garmin but didn't look at it and just ran at what I thought was easy pace and MP. It turns out that the easy miles were all between 8:02 and 8:07 pace and what I thought was MP was actually between 7:11 and 7:18 pace, which is a bit too fast!

I think the lesson to learn there is that if I try and run on 'feel' alone, then I will go out too fast, so I need to be kept under control at the start. Interestingly, my heart rate at that pace was lower than the average rate for my two 22 milers (which were hilly), so I feel reasonably confident that I could keep at that pace for 22 miles at least.

Anyway, a combination of using the 3:15 pacer, using my Garmin, keeping an eye on heart rate as well as how I feel during the race should hopefully keep me on track. It could all go wrong on the day for any number of reasons though and I will still be happy with sub 3:30 for a first marathon.

I was originally planning another 10 on Sunday, but am thinking that it's not really going to be much benefit now, so will probably do 7 or 8 miles fairly easy and not do much at all next week - perhaps a few miles mid-week at MP and a couple of miles of easy running. I will probably do a couple of miles the day before the race as well, just to reassure myself that I can still run!

 

Nick

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I am going to give it a shot subject to conditions.

My plan will be to stick to the 3:15 pacer for as long as I can hold on or for at least the first 20 even if I am feeling good.

If you look at my long run log there were two 2:31 runs for 20 miles on consecutive weeks. The same time to almost the second but two very different runs - one was out fast and faded hard the other was even paced and at the end I felt good and had something left. Even pacing is the way to go for me. I would rather feel strong and have 5 minutes to chase down rather than be shot and be clinging on to every minute.

Last week coming up for you - don't over do it! I will be looking to learn anything I can from your race!

Best of luck.

 

Slightly late weekly update from me...

Not much to report really because I haven't done much
My week looked like this:

Mon - REST
Tue - 4.04 miles - 28:07 - (6:58 pace)
Wed - REST
Thu - 10.09 miles - 1:18:01 - (7:44 pace) (5 miles easy 5 miles @MP)
Fri - REST
Sat - REST
Sun - 5.43 miles - 43:25 - (8:00 pace) (off-road - hilly)

TOTAL - 19.55 miles - average pace 7:39

I had a originally planned a 10 miler for the Sunday, but went on a group run that was just 5.5 miles and I figured that the extra bit wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. We started with steep uphill at over 9 minute miles and progressively got quicker finishing on a downhill mile of 7:16, so just easy conversational running.

This week I have even less planned - I've got a busy week with work so it's not going to be easy to fit much in anyway without going running in the dark, and I don't see any point doing anything that I don't enjoy this week because it's not going to be of any benefit other than to keep myself moving and ticking over. I'll probably do 3 or 4 miles on Wednesday or Thursday and a couple of easy miles on Saturday before the race on Sunday.
I've been managing a couple of niggles for over a month now and the taper is improving them, so the more rest and less running I do the better I think.

Only 5 days to go now and the eating starts in earnest in a couple of days!

 

Good luck in Brighton, I'll be there as a spectator this year and I'm hoping for sunshine

 

Cheers Darren, I don't mind a bit of sunshine as long as it's not too warm. I really don't want it to be too windy though or 3:15 might go out of the window.

You not running as Mr Testicles this year?

I'm number 8331 and I'll have my name on my vest, so give me a shout if you see me!

 

No Mr T this year, maybe another year

I'll keep an eye open for you and will give you a shout if I see you.